Ad Ops All Stars: Marc Boswell, LoveToKnow Media
by Kathleen Booth, on Jul 14, 2021 9:00:00 AM
Most ad ops teams got their starts as purely direct sales models and then evolved to a programmatic one, but Marc Boswell and the team at LoveToKnow Media have done just the opposite.
Having begun with an all programmatic stack, they're now developing a direct sales business line—all while completely revamping the company's programmatic business (or as Marc puts it, "blowing up the entire programmatic engine and starting over").
In this episode, Marc talks about how he undertook a complete overhaul of his programmatic stack and ad unit structure without harming revenue, why he won't work with resellers, what he did to build a faster ad stack, how his team is involving with the addition of direct sales, and what it's like managing an all-remote team (a model that dates back to pre-COVID times).
Listen to or watch the full episode, or read the transcript below, to hear Marc's story.
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Kathleen: Welcome back to the Ad Ops All-Stars podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth. And today my guest is Marc Boswell, who is the Chief Revenue Officer of LoveToKnow Media. Welcome to the podcast, Marc.
Marc: Thank you for having me.
Kathleen: I'm excited to talk to you, because you bring an interesting perspective to this conversation. I've talked to lots of people in ad ops, and the world of ad ops is changing and evolving. And many of them are going from direct sales models to programmatic. You are coming at it from a different direction. And so before we get into that though, I have an icebreaker question for you that I want to ask.
Marc: All right.
Kathleen: I ask everybody this question. Which is, if you had to describe what you do to a five year old, how would you do it?
Marc: All right. Well, my experience right now is in three year olds, but I think everybody's probably in the same realm here of my toddler loves her YouTube, and she hates the ads that come on her YouTube videos. So I would explain to a young child of, well, daddy is the one who puts those ads in your shows. But it's okay, because that's what pays for the show. So your show wouldn't be there if it weren't for those ads that you already somehow with your three year old brain know how to skip.
Kathleen: I know, isn't that terrifying? But also highly promising. You're like, either I have the most brilliant three year old. But also, holy cow, what are they watching?
Marc: I did not have to teach her how to use the app at all, she just figured it out on her own.
Kathleen: It's unbelievable, honestly. Well, that is a great explanation. Kudos. It's fascinating to see the answers I get when I ask that question. And that was a really good one. So ad ops. I always like to say, nobody grows up when they're three or five or 10 thinking I'm going into the field of ad ops. How did you wind up in this world? What did your career progression look like?
Marc: When I was a young high school student, I actually wanted to be a TV news anchor. Well, first it was the weatherman, then it was a TV news anchor. I got to college and I actually was one of the weird people who never changed my major. So I was always in that TV production, journalism. I actually worked for a radio station in high school, so media realm. So I knew I wanted to do something media. I ended up actually getting my master's in advertising. Kind of figuring out, okay, I know what I want to do is somewhere in media and advertising. As with many people, my first job was at a New York agency doing media planning and that kind of stuff. Quickly that led into pretty much my entire career in digital, which was being an account manager at 24/7 Media, which really got me more passionate about digital media.
Marc: It wasn't called digital media back then, it was I think interactive or something like that. But that really got me started on my love and passion for digital, because it is the most addressable media out there, it is the most addressable media possible. My first job, and jobs, were radio, TV, print. You can't really prove ROI there. On digital, there's a direct correlation between the optimizations you can make to an advertiser's spend, and then the reporting that you can give to them. So that really got me started and passionate about digital, and found my way from solely the account management side, to both the account management and the ad op side, to managing ad ops teams, to moving to Florida and taking a job in affiliate marketing, and then coming back to publishing. Kind of doing what I'm doing now at LoveToKnow.
Kathleen: I have to ask you before we go on about ad ops and your career, and I'm putting you on the spot here. You wanted to be a TV host, anchor, broadcaster?
Marc: I did.
Kathleen: Okay. Introduce yourself using your best TV anchor voice. I just want to hear what it sounds like.
Marc: This is going to take me back some years. This is Marc Boswell reporting for WRUF news.
Kathleen: Awesome. I love it. I'm always fascinated by, there's definitely a, I feel like a strategy, to how you do it. And I've noticed with most of the anchors and TV people I listen to you, it's like they have this emphasis on at least one word in the sentence. I don't know, it's fascinating to me. All right, so-
Marc: That was a very different career.
Kathleen: Yes, I know. Well, that was why I was surprised when you said that, it is totally different from in front of the camera to very much behind the scenes, but in a really critical role for monetization.
Kathleen: All right. So LoveToKnow, tell me more about what the company does. You guys have some really interesting properties that you own and operate, give us the overview.
Marc: When you look at it on the surface, LoveToKnow has five websites that seemingly have nothing to do with each other. We've got LoveToKnow.com, which is a women's interest site. Your Dictionary, which is a reference and continuing education site. Word Finder, which is a helper tool for people who want to find solutions for their Scrabble go. And Words with Friends games, and GolfLink.com. The thing that actually ties them all together is what we like to say is our mission statement of making the world smarter. So LoveToKnow has answers for a variety of topics. The theme there is, you ask, we answer. Your Dictionary is not really as much about a dictionary, as much as it's about continuing education and articles and learning. Word Finder is of course helping your word games. And GolfLink is how to get smarter about your golf strategy.
Marc: So while they might seem very different on the front-end, they actually do tie together. All of the sites except GolfLink do have more of that female focus, GolfLink is a little bit more male focused. So it gives us a good variety of the audience spectrum. And we are that little website that everybody's been to that nobody remembers. You've probably been to LoveToKnow, everybody listening to this has probably been to LoveToKnow, but historically the focus has not been on branding and have been on writing content that answers a user's query. And monetizing that with programmatic ads. Which, the company has been around for a very long time, that has been a fantastic strategy that we still are doing. But I brought a change element into this company by introducing the notion of, well there are other things we can do too. There's direct sales, there's branded content, there's commerce, there's data. There's a whole host of things that we can bring in to this company. And I've spent the better part of a year trying to build that business while rebuilding the programmatic business.
Kathleen: I have a lot of questions about this, but now I have another random curve ball I'm going to throw you, because you just made me think of it. And you may not even know the answer to this because it's not necessarily, I guess... Maybe it is, or maybe it isn't within your exact realm of responsibility. But I'm a marketer, I'm a content marketer. I work a lot on organic SEO. And what's interesting to me about the business you're in, is it's sort of reference, right? As you said, somebody asks, you answer. I'm really curious how your sites, how and whether your sites have been impacted by Google increasingly moving to providing answers in an answer box, versus getting people to click through to your site. Has that affected your traffic? Or how are you guys addressing that?
Marc: It hasn't affected our traffic. It would affect Your Dictionary more so than the other properties. This is, I think, the featured snippets. But it hasn't affected our traffic at all as far as I've been able to see. Your Dictionary, we do focus more on the continuing education articles, the reference versus the actual dictionary and thesaurus pieces. So we know we're never going to compete with Google for that, that's a reference for anybody who wants to come and see it. But the real meat of Your Dictionary does come from the reference. So featured snippets are something we're definitely watching, but not something that's impacted business.
Kathleen: It's fascinating to me, because I feel like it could either really help or really hurt. And because it can really hurt if you have a very short answer. Like for example, what's the temperature outside today? And Google just tells you. And so there's no reason to click through. I think a lot of the weather sites probably get hit by that. But it can also really help if you can provide an answer, but then a teaser to more. And I've seen this just with our own marketing, where if we get picked up in a featured snippet, all of a sudden our traffic skyrockets, people are actually clicking through. So it's like it, it could go either way very easily, so it's interesting. Anyway, I'm getting totally off track.
Marc: How can we give them enough without giving them too much?
Kathleen: Exactly. You have to know how to make it click baity. Give them an answer, but make it click baity. All right, so back to ad ops. This was really interesting to me, you said the company's been around for a long time. When you joined the company, what did the ad operations department look like? And you mentioned it was... Was it fully programmatic at that point?
Marc: Fully programmatic at that point. I joined and I had one person on my team, I had an ad ops associate in Spain. So LoveToKnow is a bit odd in the fact that everybody in the US is remote. We do have an office in Barcelona.
Kathleen: I used to live there, I love that city.
Marc: It's a beautiful city. I hope to go there soon. So I did have that one out ops associate in Barcelona, but it was basically me. And we had an outsourced company that was handling a lot of tasks. I evaluated everything, and this was still 2020, so the CPMs were depressed. But I looked at where things were and where I thought they could be, and decided to blow up the entire programmatic engine and start over. And also hire a couple of critical roles that we didn't have here.
Kathleen: I like how you just say that, I'm just going to blow it all up.
Marc: Just casually.
Kathleen: Why did you blow it all up?
Marc: At that point our viewability was below benchmark. We were with a company that we weren't able to make quick changes, whether on lazy loading triggers or timeouts, or swapping in Prebid partners. It just was a very inefficient setup. And I had built programmatic stacks before, never really a fully programmatic stack, so was a bit of a learning curve for me to do something that was only programmatic. But I felt that our viewability could be improved. There are some lazy loading triggers that I want to be able to test and measure on the fly. Our DFP ad units setup, and I still call it DFP, was nightmarish. There were just a lot of things that were causing inefficiencies. And there weren't a couple of critical roles on the team, we didn't really have a head of programmatic that could work with our partners, swap in and out, find a new Prebid adapter.
Marc: We didn't have an analyst to look at the reporting, evaluate our floors, see how the auction dynamics were going. Those things were missing. So first I had to rebuild the stack and then put those key hires in place. And now we're in a place where we work with a partner that we can easily slot Prebid partners in and out. I can go in their UI, change the lazy loading triggers, change the timeouts per vendor. Really have a lot of custom elements that we can change things on the fly and pop vendors in and out, see what works, see what doesn't. I'm a big fan of test and measure. We've found some partners over the past six months that have been great revenue drivers for us that in all other places that it might be a little bit more inflexible. It wouldn't have even made it past the legal route. So the one thing I appreciate being in a smaller company is we can slot those things in and out. We can test and measure. And we can blow up the stack and rebuild it.
Kathleen: Now, I feel like that's the question people always theoretically ask themselves. If you could tear it all out and rebuild it today, how would you do that? And you actually did it. So I really want to know, what did that look like? What does your new stack look like? Because that is an interesting position that you were in, of being able to build the stack that you wanted today.
Marc: Yeah. Rebuilding the airplane while it's still in the air.
Kathleen: Well, and that's going to be my next question is, how did you do it and not crash the airplane?
Marc: So, carefully is the answer. The preferable stack for me is having your... Of course, everything competes with AdEx. And AdEx is actually not our biggest bidder anymore, which was one of our goals, and a year later it actually happened. So everything of course competes with AdEx, so you have to have your Prebid stack. You have to pick the right partners that aren't laggy and actually are providing unique demand. You always have to work with the big guys, because they're going to fill a lot. They're going to be the ones who can handle your PMPs and your preferred deals, and all that stuff. So you have to have your name brands in there, but you also have to make sure you're working with the right partners. So when you look through somebody's ads.txt, and you're seeing reseller, reseller, reseller, reseller, reseller, and you already work with those people, you have to start to question why.
Marc: So it was really analyzing who we were working with. We had way too many people in Prebid, and I wanted a quick, more efficient setup. So we did that exercise of looking for the ads.txt, looking at the bits analysis, seeing who was providing more unique value than others. Streamlined that. And then put a couple tests partners in. There are a couple partners that have lower scale but higher CPMs. So you want to keep those in to serve as a false floor to help raise the other bids from the other vendors. And then what I like to do is have some things outside of the programmatic stack in DFP to help fill in gaps. To serve pieces of inventory that might be better served by having a 100% filler partner, or somebody that just has a shortage of engagement, versus having everything be biddable.
Marc: And that's how I mitigated for not having direct sales. Because direct sales always does help programmatic, you have to look at everything together. I don't look at them as direct, I don't look at them as programmatic. It's all the same thing. Direct and programmatic should work together. Direct should raise the prices of programmatic, there's inventory scarcity, you're putting less into the market, drive the prices up. But sometimes programmatic has a higher price than direct campaign, that niche and serve above. So the stack is built in a way that that can happen. So that a programmatic is a higher price than direct, the programmatic admins.
Marc: And then we've got, we can swap partners in and out if we want to try something new, a PMP only partner, or somebody who has true unique demand. The thing that I am on right now is, you're not getting in my stack unless you're bringing me true unique demand. You come to me with 25 lines of ads.txt and they're all resellers, sorry, we're not a place for you. Unless you think you can be successful having your one line. So we built everything based on that. We've got to have our baseline, but then anything on top of that needs to be unique.
Kathleen: All right, so let's talk about, how did you make these changes without impacting revenue, without impacting any other mission critical elements of the business?
Marc: We did it in a gradual way, so we didn't just rip the band-aid off. We went site by site and did split tests and made a percentage of traffic move over to the new stack every day. So there were some weeks where we were running both stacks at the same time. And doing revenue reporting and reconciliation was a bit of a bear. But we also needed to be careful to make sure everything worked right in the new stack. Not only did we have a new programmatic stack, we were using new DFP ad units. So before, because LoveToKnow has a wide variety of topics, every ad unit on the page for each section had its own ad unit. I had thousands of ad units, which just blew my mind. We took that thousand ad units and made it eight, for LoveToKnow, and did the same for the other properties.
Marc: So not only did we have a revamp of the ad unit structure, we had a revamp of the programmatic stack. We switched to a new Prebid adapter. So we had to just make sure everything worked. So there was extensive QA of course, but it was a very gradual process where every day we'd release to a new percentage of users, a new percentage of users. And then we'd let that site run on the new stack, make sure everything looked right compared to what the baseline was. And then did that site by site, just increments at a time. The result was our viewability went exponentially higher overnight. Our viewability right now is roughly 75 to 80% on average. I'm not going to tell you what it was before, but it was not good.
Kathleen: And so what do you attribute that massive immediate change?
Marc: A faster ad stack. We're shoving less through Prebid, we've tightened up the... We did tighten up the lazy loading triggers, we did tighten up the time-outs. And we removed half our partners from Prebid. When you're Prebid is really that, it's going to take a really long time to make all those calls. I like to think of the internet going through the same pipe, trying to shove a watermelon through a pipe that's meant for a Kiwi, it's not going to be fast. So we had to pair everything down, get back to basics. Follow ad ops 101. And it resulted in higher viewability, which then resulted in higher CPMs. And I look at everything in RPM, and those are in a place where I'm much happier now than I was a year ago.
Kathleen: Now, you said when you came into the company you had one person working with you on your team. When you started to make all these changes, was it still just the two of you, or had you added to your team at that point?
Marc: At that point we had added our head of programmatic. So she was there and the analyst was not long after her. So it was our mighty team of three, plus the devs. I do luckily have an ad tech engineer on the dev side who works on all of my projects. So I'll count him as part of my team as well. So we were a mighty team of five.
Kathleen: Wow. And today, is that team any larger or you're five now, is that what you're saying?
Marc: My programmatic team is still that same core set. So it's me, my head of programmatic, who is essentially also my head of ad ops, my analyst and the ad tech engineer. I am building out the direct infrastructure, but for programmatic it is just that core team.
Kathleen: Okay. So you just gave me the perfect segue into the next question that I was going to ask. Which is, when you go from programmatic to direct, that's obviously a very different beast, and it requires a different nature and level of support. So what are you building out as far as a team to support direct sales?
Marc: We're all wearing a lot of hats right now. In December I hired a head of marketing and what we call LoveToKnow Studios, which is our branded content arm. So she's really in charge of making our properties as marketable as possible. We've done a lot of redesign work, even though if my boss heard this, I'm not allowed to use the re word. We've done a lot of incremental modernizations to the sites. We've launched a new corporate website. We've created new sales collateral. We have brought on a sales rep, we're looking for another one right now. We're bringing on a sales marketer. And I am going to be serving as the client services manager until we get a good number of campaigns that I can actually justify hiring one. So we're trying to be very diligent about how we spend our money.
Marc: So we're getting those key roles in place to help on the presale side, but we're not doing a bloat. So we're not hiring people that we don't think we need right now. We just need somebody to wear a lot of hats in this first phase until we really get going. And then we can bring on client services, then we can bring on media planning. But as we start this thing up, we're all going to have to wear a lot of hats. Which, that's how it works when you're building something.
Kathleen: Yeah. And, I mean, what I find fascinating about that switch is that to support a direct framework, an organization, it definitely requires you to staff up. And there are real costs associated with that, as you mentioned. To what extent did you model out the ramp in terms of revenue and how that would match what you're going to have to spend in order to get there?
Marc: I had to do that all myself. We actually have a new VP of finance who started this week, so I'm going to work on 2022 plans with him very soon. But it was really looking at our traffic, knowing what we can charge on the direct side for CPMs, really estimating how long it would take us to get in market, get those RFPs, answer them using historical win rates that I knew from previous companies. And saying, okay, I think Q4 is going to be this. So, the direct sale layout is going to be in the red this year, but programmatic's doing so well we can support it.
Marc: So the thought right now is, our programmatic business is so mature, programmatic is going to support direct for 2021. In 2022, we think that's going to change because X dollars are going to come through the direct line versus programmatic. So it's really more of an art than a science for 2021. 2022, we want to be a little bit more scientific about it. We hope to have another seller. We're going to be a bit more methodical about how we assign sales targets and those kinds of things so we can staff appropriately.
Kathleen: So, you're hiring a bunch of people. You've already mentioned that the company has always been a remote first company, or at least in recent history. Which is so interesting, because of course during COVID everybody was forced to go remote, but you've had the benefit of more years of experience with that. And I'm assuming, am I correct that all these new hires will also be remote?
Marc: All the new hires will be remote. The sales reps are going to need to be in key areas. So for us, Chicago is an area of focus right now, we do have a good concentration of individuals in New York. My VP of marketing studios in New York, our general manager of LoveToKnow is in New York. Just brought on somebody on the research side who's in New York. So just based on our industry, we know there are going to be concentrations of people in New York, in Chicago, in LA. I'm down here in Florida, must be the only one. But that's how LoveToKnow operates. You can be anywhere in the US to work for us. Actually, anywhere in the world. We have people in 23 countries.
Marc: So we are truly a global company. And LoveToKnow was remote before video chat was a thing. I don't know how they did that.
Kathleen: Yeah, exactly.
Marc: But LoveToKnow has the remote culture down.
Kathleen: What advice would you give? I mean, I think there's a lot of companies right now that are grappling with this, what does our return to work policy look like? And for some of them they're leaning into more remote models, but maybe they don't have the experience that your company does. What advice would you give to somebody who's running an ad ops team and then thinking of embracing a more remote team structure moving forward?
Marc: The thing I always like to have is a connection to my team. I had a very core group. And when I was in New York at my last company, that's something you can't replace, but you can get close to it. So my team now, we have weekly Zoom meetings. We have weekly one-on-ones. Don't underestimate the power of a Slack that just asks, "Hey, how are you doing today?" Just to make sure you show that you're there if they have any questions, you're there if they need anything. And you're there, you care about them. So there's that. And now that conferences are coming back up, we do plan on actually doing some in-person things. It actually makes the in-person time more impactful when you're completely remote. I was actually in New York a couple weeks ago meeting with our CEO, my VP of marketing, and the GM of LoveToKnow.
Marc: And we actually got so much done in a day because we actually could focus. We done all the groundwork asynchronously and on video chat, which made for a really impactful working session. So we hope to do more of that. Of course, in-person events, we're going to do sales summits, all that kind of stuff now that travel is open. But you can build a culture on video chat, you just need to make sure you foster it. And not skip that one-on-one, or not be distracted with something. When you're on a one-on-one with somebody, pay attention to them, listen to them, hear them out. This is your time. And you can build a good rapport with somebody without even meeting. A lot of companies do have multiple offices, and it's just an evolution of, oh, I'm in the New York office. And you're an ad ops associate for me in San Francisco. So we're going to do video chat all the time, and I'll come up there every six months or whatever. It's just an evolution of that, just kind of for everybody.
Kathleen: I love that. And of course with video chat, show up on video. There's a lot of people I know who get on video chats and do not show their faces, huge pet peeve of mine. Nothing worse than looking at yourself on a camera and not seeing the other person.
Marc: Yeah, I definitely do not want to be looking at myself on camera.
Kathleen: Exactly. So what would you say is your biggest challenge today in your day-to-day job?
Marc: My biggest challenge outside of managing a programmatic cycle, building a direct one, is LoveToKnow is an unknown brand. So building that direct sales arm is going to be hard and it's going to be challenging. So it's really bringing LoveToKnow media to life on the buy side. The programmatic side, yeah, we have a very healthy programmatic business, it's very mature. But most of that buying is done by algorithms, we're not actually talking to people there. So we have to do a lot of brand building for LoveToKnow, which is why we need really strong sales reps with really great relationships. And when we do have those campaigns, we have to try hard.
Marc: We are the challenger brand, so we need to provide a white glove experience with no mistakes, and make sure the campaign goes off without a hitch. And we meet the KPIs. So we're going to put a lot of weight into client services. We're going to put a lot of weight into ad ops. We're going to have a great link between the sales reps and the ad ops teams. I will personally make sure that. So it's really building our brand and following through on our promises when we do have a critical mass of directives.
Kathleen: That makes sense. All right, we're going to shift gears, because this is fascinating and I could go on forever, but we don't have a ton of time. I always ask guests to questions, and I'd love to hear what you have to say about this. And you're a great example of this, the ad ops world is changing all the time. Technology is changing. Algorithms are changing. Regulations are changing. If there's one thing that's constant, it's change, right? And so how do you stay on top of it all? Are there certain sources that you go to to make sure that you're up to date on everything that's happening and on the cutting edge?
Marc: Yeah. There are a lot of publications I subscribe to every day. AdExchanger is a good one. MediaPost. Obviously Digiday. All the Beeler.Tech stuff. AdMonsters, the Beeler.Tech Slack. Talking to my colleagues in the industry, just really trying to keep on top of all of these changes that are going on. The biggest one right now is cookiepocalypse, what do we do? Let's not freak out, buyers still have to buy. Let's just figure out a quick way for them to do that. So it's really those publications and the community that, first of all, keep us all sane. And second of all, we can share ideas. That's the thing I love about the ad ops community is there's not ego there. Everybody truly wants to help each other because we're all facing the same challenges. So the community is really the core of it. And of course the articles are great, you'll learn a lot from that. But the community really adds that human element to it.
Kathleen: It is an incredibly tight-knit community. It's been really fun seeing that unfold as I've done more of these interviews. It's like six degrees of Kevin Bacon in the ad ops world. Right? And to that end, the world is opening back up, you talked about this, and you talked about events. Are there certain events that you're particularly excited about going to in the coming year?
Marc: Yes. I'm going to actually go to an in-person event in October. I'm going to go to AdMonsters Ops. I know some people are going to the one in Vail before that. And there's a Pub Forum in San Diego as well. But I'm excited to go to Ops, particularly because I haven't been able to go to conferences for three years. I had a baby. Then we moved to Florida, and I took that little stint in affiliate marketing. And then COVID happened. So I am particularly excited to go back to events. There's also the Digiday Publishing conference down in Miami, which I'm really excited to, I don't have to fly to that one, I can just drive, which has me really excited. So the Digiday Publishing Summit, and Ops are two ones that I am particularly excited about going to. Actually interacting with the community again and doing in-person.
Kathleen: That's great. Then my last question for you is, speaking of the community and all the people who help each other out, who in the ad ops world, what other ad ops team leads do you think are doing really outstanding work, and who should be our next guest?
Marc: I'm surprised you haven't interviewed him yet, Rob Beeler.
Kathleen: I have asked him, and he has said he's coming on. But he's been so busy he hasn't booked it yet. So we'll have to nag him, because I agree with you, right?
Marc: He knows literally everybody. He remembers who you are. He was the face of AdMonsters, now he's the face of Beeler.Tech. But he is a great one. Lila Hunt, who I think you've already interviewed. Ryan Nathanson at SHE, I used to work with him at Federated Media. He would be a good one. And Ashley McGee who used to work at Tribune, but now she's, I think, at Amazon. She helped me out a lot over the years. And of course, Catherine Beattie, but you've already talked to her. And a whole bunch of other people I can't even think of right now because I've been sidelined for a couple years and I'm trying to ease back into it.
Marc: But I think those are good ones. And of course there are a lot of people who don't really get recognized, the ones that are the... The unsung heroes, the ad ops people are always the ones who are behind the scenes. They don't get the limelight enough. There are a lot of people in the community that I wish I could name, but I don't know them. So raise your hands.
Kathleen: I know. Well, and that's true. If you're listening and you lead an ad ops team, and you haven't heard your name mentioned, you can always tweet me or message me. And I would love to talk to you. So there you go. Well, that's awesome. I love it. Those are some great names. And one of these days we will get Rob Beeler on this podcast, or I will just continue to nag him until he says yes to get me off his back.
Marc: I can nag him too.
Kathleen: Yes. Well, thank you so much, Marc. This has been awesome. And I'm so excited to share it with everyone. And thank you if you're listening, for joining me for this episode of Ad Ops All Stars. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or the podcast platform of your choice. And to hear more interviews with leading ad ops experts, head to clean.io. And while you're there, check out our resource center to learn more about protecting your user experience and your revenue. That is it for this week. Thank you, Marc, this has been a ton of fun.
Marc: Thank you.