Ad Ops All Stars: Justin Hansen, Media Tradecraft

What are the biggest challenges facing today's ad ops teams?

This week on Ad Ops All Stars, Media Tradecraft COO and Co-Founder Justin Hansen talks about viewability, content analytics, and identity - three of the biggest challenges that publishers are coping with - and explains his approach to solving them.

Justin's ad ops career has included stints working in-house in various ad ops roles, and now as a consultant helping some of the world's top publishers solve their monetization challenges.

Listen to or watch the full episode, or read the transcript below, to learn more about what Justin has to say.

Resources from this episode:

• Connect with Justin on LinkedIn
• Visit the Media Tradecraft website

 

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Transcript:

Kathleen: Welcome to the Ad Ops All Stars podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth. And my guest today is Justin Hansen, who is the co-founder and COO of Media Tradecraft. Welcome to the podcast, Justin.

Justin: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited.

Kathleen: Yeah. This has been a long time in coming. Those who are listening will not know that I've been chasing Justin down, and we've been trying to figure out schedules. But you guys were top on my list when I started this podcast. I love what you're doing at Media Tradecraft, and both you and Eric are people who I love to follow on LinkedIn. So I'm excited to dig into your story. But before we go there, I always ask my guests the same icebreaker question. Which is, how would you describe your job to a five-year-old?

Justin: Yeah. So I think, luckily now, most five-year-olds are pretty familiar with what I would consider an ad. They might not know the story behind why ads exist, or why they're there. I don't have kids of my own, but if I think I was going to explain this to some younger kids that I know, I would really just explain to them how we're the people behind those ads that allow them to watch, view, consume the content that they really love. Maybe that's a game. Maybe it's the ad that goes with the game on their tablet app that they use a lot. Or maybe it's the YouTube ad that they watch.

Justin: But what I do know is that five-year-olds, and most kids nowadays... They're on YouTube. They're playing games, they're doing all of these things that are consuming content. Really just describing it as we're powering that. So then those companies are really able to build the things that they love. So yeah. That's, I think, good for them to know. I think that's something for the space in general.

Justin: That's like really valuable outside of five-year-olds. Right? So it's really good for the average consumer to understand that the ads that they see, or the different signup buttons and those kinds of things, are really meant so they can consume content that they love. That goes from if you're five all the way up to if you're 85. That's really something that I think is empowering and powerful for every consumer to know.

Kathleen: Yeah. That's a great point. It's a good reminder I think for people to hear that. Especially at times like these, when there are so many new regulations, and different measures being introduced to limit advertising. I'm not sure that everybody's fully thought through what that's going to mean for their experience consuming media. I don't know. I, for one... And this is a whole separate topic that we probably shouldn't go down the path of. But I was going to say... I, for one... I'm not sure that I want to see less relevant ads. Which is where I think some of it's heading also. But that's just me.

Justin: Yeah. My favorite conversation is when you're out with your friend and they're like, "Well, I pay my internet bill, so I don't get why I get these ads." It's like, "Well, that's not really the website. That's something totally different."

Kathleen: That's exactly right. Well, let's back up for a minute. You have had an interesting career in ad ops. As I mentioned, you're now the COO and co-founder at Media Tradecraft. Can you talk a little bit about what the company is, what it does... And also, how did you wind up there? What has your career progression been?

Justin: Yeah. So, I think, to answer that question, I think I'll start in the beginning. Then that'll really kind of frame why we built Media Tradecraft, and really what it is. Many years ago, I started my career actually as an ad quality person. Which, from someone coming straight out of college was, looking back... It was a blessing. It was a blessing because what a lot of people don't realize, is when you're fighting those bad ads that are happening in the most minute challenging areas, you learn a lot about the ad tech space.

Justin: So what I learned a lot about, right from day one, is... One. How does ad tech code work? Where are these creatives coming from? What is a Magnite? Which was a Rubicon then. Or an Index? What are these different SSPs? What's a Media Math? A Trade Desk? A Google... Because those are where the bad ads could be coming from. Now, they're coming from everywhere. But when I kind of got thrust straight into college into that role, I had to learn all of those things. I had to learn all the way from the buy side to the publisher side, and all the middle layers in between. Because you couldn't really stop something that's... Back then, especially, because there wasn't companies like Clean and others. There was more of a person who was looking creative to creative to find the bad ones.

Justin: And really, what I was able to do, is learn that whole middle layer. From the publisher down, and then find the ads where they came from, what the creative was. And then from there, my career really evolved into ops, and yield and strategy and that sort of thing.

Justin: And really, my last couple years at my former company, Eric and I realized what we saw was a gap in the marketplace for publishers. And really, that gap was that a lot of companies were really focusing on the ad management model, and less on the customer service model. So what we were seeing, is a lot of companies would have like hundreds of pubs, thousands of pubs. But they weren't really serving them on a one-to-one basis, and really learning about their business, and really being included in part of business. So that's where Media Tradecraft kind of evolved. And what we evolved is really a publisher services business first. We do a lot of those things that the other ad management firms do. Meaning we do focus on revenue, and ad management, and fighting the bad ads, like I talked about, and helping them with direct sales, and PMPs, and all of that.

Justin: But what we are, first and foremost, is an in-source solution for them. So what we do is we work internally with the publishers, as opposed to externally. We take a publisher that's already good, and we make them great. Or a publisher that's great, and we make them amazing. Because we become part of their team, and we bring another layer of expertise that they're just looking for to really get to that next level, if that makes sense. And it's really high touch. It's really custom per site, and and it's absolutely not cookie cutter. It's really getting and doing something custom with each publisher that we work with.

Kathleen: This is so interesting to me as I listen to you speak. Because one thing that's become very clear to me throughout the interviews I've done for this podcast, is that there is no textbook for ad ops. Right? You can't go to college for it. It's very much a career in which people who are driven, self-taught, insatiably curious people thrive. Because you got to have what I like to call a high figure-it-out factor. Where you're like, "I'm going to get in there, and figure this out, and understand how it works, and pick it apart."

Kathleen: It changes so often. I mean, the time we're living in right now is the perfect example of this, with everything that's happening with cookies and identity in general. It's all changing, and everybody's thrown into the middle of that change. And so it does strike me that not all publishers have the resources to have enough people on their team that are able to really immerse themselves in all of this, and stay on top of it, and be on the cutting edge. So I can see where this outsourced in-house model, which is how I would characterize it, makes a lot of sense. Because that's what you're doing. You are immersing yourself in all of it so that they don't necessarily have to, to the same degree you are.

Justin: Yeah. You bring up a great point in that. It's so complex, and it's so different for each publisher. And I think that's where we're really getting a lot of traction in the market. Because we do bring a customized solution per publisher. The needs of one publisher aren't always the needs of another. The weaknesses of one publisher aren't the weaknesses of another. And I think that's where we can confidently say, "Okay, you have these eight things that you're amazing at." And then we've worked with them on two. Right? Or seven and three. It's really that kind of concept, but you're you're 100% right. The day-to-day is hard. Right? No one's going to be an expert at everything. It's impossible. So how do you really know what you're great at? And then admit that. Right? And then even the hardest thing. What are you bad at? And admit that, and say, "How can Media Tradecraft help me with that?" That collective effort is where we see extremely high success with our publishers, that they're just so pumped about.

Kathleen: Yeah. I used to own a digital marketing agency, and it was similar in the sense that we would work with clients, and they would have a fantastic marketer in their team. But that person couldn't necessarily keep up with everything happening in the industry just by themselves. And also, when you're in-house, you're living in that bubble of that one company. There's something to be said for having the vantage point of working with a lot of different companies, and being able to cross-pollinate those lessons learned. I think it sounds like it's the same dynamic with what you're doing.

Justin: Yeah. For sure. How many in there, with that extra set of eyes, is always helpful for a publisher. They might've done it one way for a long time. Or they're like, "We know if someone else comes in, and just looks at it from a slightly different angle, we really could find value." And yeah, 100%. That's something that we do see really impacts our publishers.

Kathleen: So the question I have for you is... You talked about how you started to see this trend, where publishers were working with more and more buyers, if I heard you correctly. Customer service, customer success was kind of being sacrificed on the altar of volume. Is that right?

Justin: Yeah. So less buyers, but more so companies who do similar things to what we do, where we serve as publishers, and we help be their monetization arm. Those companies work with thousands, versus maybe only 10 or 15 or 30. That's kind of less on the actual buyer side, but more on like the... How do you monetize, and how do you make your site faster. That sort of thing.

Kathleen: Got it. Okay. That makes sense. So before coming to Media Tradecraft... Now you worked in-house, as you mentioned. What was the team that you were a part of? Was that just a direct team, or was it programmatic, or both?

Justin: Yeah, so it was both. But it was actually a 22 year old business that had been around a while, and kind of had some of that other model that we talked about. Where it wasn't really one-to-one as much. It was built... It was crazy. Amazing that they started in the 1990s, which for our space is... There's very few companies that have been serving ads across the web since the 90s. Right? So it was in some ways similar, but in a lot of ways different. In that... They did serve as publishers, which is what we do. Right? But they service them in a much different way, closer to the mindset that you see others in this space doing, and less of what Media Tradecraft doing now, where we get involved in things completely outside of ads.

Justin: We work with our publishers on their site speed, their search traffic, their content analytics. Understanding when you post an article, is that actually what's driving the most revenue? So it's all of that stuff. It's as if you went into your Monday board meeting with the publisher themselves. You would all be around a table, and you'd have the Head of Content, and then the Head of Ops, and then you'd have the Head of Tech all sit in a room and be like, "What are we tackling this week?" That's kind of what we do. Where I came from before was more of like, "Hey. Here's header bidding, or here's a script. And then we'll monetize the ads that are on the page."

Kathleen: Yeah. Much more commoditized. So when you work with publishers, given that you do work with many of them... What would you say are the top three challenges that you see, when you start working with new publishers, that they're facing?

Justin: Yeah. So I think number one is always... And I think this is for every business. Right? Is just resources and expertise. That can come in the form of ops. As you've interviewed a lot of people, I think you know it's... They wear a lot of hats, and then it's like, "I either need more of that, or I don't have enough experts there." Development is the same thing. Where it's like, you can never have enough engineers, or coders, or people really looking at the site, and then figuring out. A second thing is actually something that you brought up a little bit ago. Coming in with that open mindset, and not maybe being part of that company for the last 10 years or five years. So a lot of publishers, they just kind of need another way to look at things.

Justin: So you come in there and you say, "Have you ever thought of this? Or what about this? Or what if we did this?" And that's something where they love it. And it's something where it's just... It's a fresh mindset. Because when you've done something for a while, you just tend to need that. It's good to have like an external horse come in and say, "What about this?" And look at it from a different angle. So I think resources is number one. That extra look is number two. And then for us, really, in my opinion, it's strategy. So we are extremely custom with every publisher we work with. And because we've done this 50 plus times, built custom solutions with 50 plus publishers, we have a lot of tools in the toolbox. Right?

Justin: Sometimes, maybe a publisher is using a Phillips screwdriver, and it's a Flathead. It's like, "No. Have you ever thought about this concept? Or this?" So I think it's really those three things. And that's where we really find... We help our publishers a lot. The strategy is a really complicated part. Right? That could go content strategy. That can be ad layouts. That could be partners. It could be a bunch of different things. But I think those three things are things that our publishers really utilize, and then find that what we bring helps.

Kathleen: So now digging to one layer deeper. Similar question, but specific to ad ops. When you start working with publishers, and you finally get that look under the hood. Whether it's at their tech stack, or how they're operating their teams... Are there certain things that you tend to see over and over, that are either inefficiencies, or mistakes that that folks are making?

Justin: Yeah, that's a tough question. So I don't think there's a lot of consistencies. One of the things that I think is forefront to all publishers is, "Why is my viewability not where I want it to be?" That's a complex question. But I think always it's like, "How do we get 50% viewability up to 60? Or 60 to 70?" And that is something that I think we always provide solutions for. But the solution itself is different for each publisher. Right? But it's always something that's forefront. I think content analytics is another big one. How do you figure out how to make sure the content team is informed from a data standpoint, about how to maximize their revenue? Because they're great at what they do. But then also, a lot of companies, they separate what an article makes from the article page views. Excel from the Google analytics. Right?

Justin: That's a challenge, because a content person could create an article that gets a million page views. But if it's only makes you a hundred dollars, you'd rather have a 200,000 page view. So it's bridging that, I think, is something that we find common. It's helping the content team really understand the revenue of the articles they're producing. And then they can start building trends and say, "Okay, wow. My publisher or my audience loves this. And they actually don't like this, but I thought they liked this." So those are two. And then obviously, over the last couple of years slash months, identity spending. Right? Now, Google made their announcement. So it's kind of calmed down.

Kathleen: Hurry up and wait. Right?

Justin: Exactly. For the longest time though, it was like... What are we doing with LiveRamp? Or UID 2.0? Or should we be getting more emails? Or what about logged in environment? So that was another one that I think was really common for us to have to tackle. But luckily now, there's a little more time. I think that publishers are now focusing maybe more on their in-house challenges. And then still thinking about that, but maybe not feeling the rush that they might've felt like before. If that makes sense.

Kathleen: So you raised some interesting topics there. The first was viewability. It sounds like thematically, you hear that a lot. How can I improve viewability? Granted, as you said, the solution is going to be different in every case. But I'm curious. When you do come in, and you work with a new publisher who says, "Hey, viewability is an issue for me." Can you just walk me through... What are the things you're looking at, to try to narrow down to what their real issue is?

Justin: Yeah. So there's a couple of things. Number one, is their ad set up. So a lot of that is actually predicated on their audience. Right? So I think a lot of publishers... And this is a historical kind of mindset, about how you set up a site... You put ads in certain spots. Right? Or ads go in these certain locations, because that's where a user may or may not be. Right? But the reality is content has changed a lot in the last couple of years. So three years ago, people weren't embedding Instagram embeds, and tweets, and links to YouTube, and all of this stuff. Right? So where the ads go is actually really predicated on what is the user doing on the page. Right? I think that's one common thing that we think about as a team. Since we sit so close with the content team, and get so in depth with understanding what the publisher's goal is, and what their content does, is we think about the ad strategy.

Justin: Maybe the ad doesn't have to be under the title. Just because for the last 10 years in ad tech, we've put an ad underneath the title of the article every time. So maybe it should go by the YouTube embed, or maybe it should go in a different spot. Or maybe we need to think about... Do a heat map with the user, and those sort of things, and really learn where they're going, and then build a strategy there. I do think that's number one. I think number two is really... What were they doing before, from an ad code standpoint? How are they rendering their ads? There's a tech piece that really does impact viewability. And I think luckily, we've been doing this for years. So we really do understand how to have our code be as light as possible, and really maximize viewability versus CPM. So I think that's an area where we really help publishers as well. Yes. I think those two are probably the two biggest ones.

Kathleen: And then you mentioned content analytics. I loved that you brought this up, because I've always really specialized... Within the realm of marketing, my specialty has always been content marketing. So even in the type of marketing I do, your ability to get sales, talking to marketing about what you should be writing about... It's sort of the parallel to what you mentioned. It's always been a challenge. Right? So I'd love to hear your thoughts on... Are there some things that publishers should be doing to better inform the content team, so that they can get everybody kind of rowing in the same direction?

Justin: Yeah, that's a great question. I think step one is really sitting with them of that. And understanding you can't cover every topic that they're going to write about. Right? But is there a way to bucket it? Or create groups? One thing that I think about is... Let's say it's an entertainment publisher. Well, who do you write about? Is it music? And then it's actors, actresses.... And then, can you figure out a way to then also create buckets of who you think your top five actors are for your users, and your top five actresses, and then your top five musicians. So it's things like that, where step one is sitting down with the content team, and they're already writing about something. Right? So building like a framework of, "This is what I'm writing about."

Justin: And then inside Google, or GAM, figuring out a way to segment that data out. So then, they can easily, on a daily basis, get the revenue for when they post an article. Let's say it's about Taylor Swift. They actually know Taylor Swift, every day, is doing this. And then, here's the page views I got, because that's already in the URL usually, or something. So you can pull that from GA. But I think that would be my recommendation. How do you sit with the team first? Understand what are they writing about, and why. And then figure out in GAM, how do you bridge that from a data standpoint on the revenue side?

Kathleen: I love that advice. Lastly, you talked about identity. It's just been my observation that there are definitely the publishers who are very large and well established, who have deep pockets, who are... Not all of them, but many of whom are more well-prepared for what's coming. Just because they've been able to make investments in building out their first party audiences. They're way ahead of the game, in terms of newsletter products, and things like that. Then there are the rest of the publishers, that don't have huge deep pockets, that aren't large conglomerates. Do you have any advice for that second group, on some things that they should be doing now, to prepare for when third-party cookies are eventually deprecated?

Justin: Yeah. That's a great question. So I think it depends on what type of publisher you are. You bring up a great point. There's a bunch of publishers out there, like the New York Times and others... They're going to be in a different kind of group than what some might call, mid to long-tier publishers. But mid to long-tier publishers also have really loyal audiences. So I think step one is looking at who you are as a company. Let's say you're smaller. Right? But you still might have 20% of your audience that comes every day. So the question is, what are you doing for that 20%. Right? And then you might have 20% that comes from social. So that's going to be a different type of component. So what I think you need to do is, as a publisher, really think about where are your traffic sources? And then match that to solutions out there.

Justin: There's a bunch of solutions for emails. There's a bunch of solutions for logged-in users, and things like that. It's really just connecting whatever you have as an audience to the solutions out there. Because the reality is... Let's say a publisher is way smaller, but has 20 or 30% of their audience that comes every day. If you start using what the email solutions, or the single sign-on solutions, or things like that... You're going to be prepared from that standpoint, because that's 20% of your audience, that could produce three or four times the revenue in two years. Then there's looking at contextual for others, and then figuring out how do you align your content strategy. So I really think it's step one is looking at your audience. Figuring out... Where do your users come from? And then building a strategy for that.

Justin: Then secondly, the most important thing outside of that, is really making sure you're keeping up with what's happening. Understanding what Google is doing with their changes with FLOC. You know what I mean? And then making sure you understand... What's LiveRamp doing? What's Trade Desk doing? What's ID5 doing? What's some of these other solutions that are out there, and what are they really predicating their business model on? And then making sure you build a plan for each of them. Because the reality is there's not going to be one solution. Right? How do you understand all of them? And then look at your audience and say, "Okay, these three, I actually think, are going to work for me really well."

Kathleen: Yeah. I could see where in that process, having an outside person to help you navigate, it would be really valuable. Because it's a lot. It's a lot, even just listening to you talk about it. It's very fragmented. There are many different options, and staying on top of it all is as a challenge.

Justin: Yeah, for sure.

Kathleen: So we talked about the challenges publishers are facing. I'm curious. What are the biggest challenges that you face in your job every day?

Justin: Yeah. So I think our biggest challenge is also probably our company philosophy. Right? Every day, we wake up, since we work really close with all of our publishers, and we think, "How do we make our publisher that much better?" So it's like... How do we make them more money? How do we make their pages faster? How do we make their user experience better? How do we help inform their direct sales team? How do we help inform their content team? So I think our biggest challenge is just consistently making sure that we're driving the results that our publishers want, and really creating those custom solutions, those unique ideas... And those things are really hard.

Justin: If you redesign a tech stat for a single publisher to drive better direct sales, attribution, higher clicks and viewability, that's a customization that then... You start with ops, it goes to dev, gets built. Then you go to the team on the publisher side, and teach them how to use it, and make sure they're driving the car in the right way. And that sort of thing. So that's our biggest challenge. But also, what we love to do... The reason why we built our company, is that customization is what really, really helps a publisher see their maximum value. But it's extremely challenging at the same time, as you can imagine.

Kathleen: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. All right. Lots of people are just getting into the career of ad ops. You've had an interesting career. And now, especially in your position as somebody who works with a lot of different publishers. Do you have any particular advice that you would give somebody who was just starting out today?

Justin: Good question. So is this for an ops person, or in general?

Kathleen: I'd say, somebody who wanted to pursue a career in ad ops. What should they be doing now, to set them themselves up for success? Knowing how quickly this industry is changing?

Justin: Okay. Yeah. So that's a great question. I have actually one piece of advice, that I would pass on to every person starting. Learn code, and learn the development side of your job. That's extremely challenging and hard, but... It's extremely hard to understand the full picture of ad operations if you don't necessarily understand how Google's library works, or how would the ad gets to the pager... You don't have to know how to code, but what is the developer doing? Because you could spend all this time diagnosing why this ad is doing something wonky. But the reality is, there's a code piece behind it. So, my advice would be... Ops people are so busy. But try to take 10, 15% of your time to understanding what's happening on the page, as much as what's happening inside GAM.

Justin: Because I think a lot of ops people, they focus on... This is what's happening in ad manager. Right? But ad manager is only half the picture, because ad manager only listens to what the developer does. So if the developer defines an ad unit as 300 by 150, you're not going to get a 300 by 250. So I think that's my piece of advice. Is try to bridge, or just unify that process. So I think for a publisher to be successful is... Don't think of dev over here, and ops over here. How can they sit together, and they can be in the same room?

Kathleen: I think you are totally spot on. And I've seen the same thing in marketing. Marketers who know how to get into HTML or CSS... I always say, "I know enough CSS to be dangerous." Right? You can at least get in and troubleshoot. You don't have to be somebody who writes code. But if you can go in, and see when something doesn't look right in the code, and flag it and correct it, that's when I think you're in a great position for success.

Justin: A great point. So I'm the same way. So I think of coding as a language. So a lot of people say that some people can hear the language. Right? Some people can write it. Some people can speak it. But doing all three of those is impossible. But for coding, you don't necessarily have to know how to write it. But can you understand it? And can you see it, and read it? I think if you can get to that point, then it's extremely valuable for an ops person.

Kathleen: Definitely. I love that advice. All right. We're going to shift gears, because I have two questions I always ask my guests at the end of every interview. I want to make sure we squeeze these in before we wrap up. The first is... And we've already talked about this. The ad ops world is changing really, really quickly. Whether it's technology-fueled changes, or regulatory changes, what have you... Platform updates. How do you particularly stay on top of it all? And are there particular sources that you turn to, to stay educated?

Justin: Yeah. So that's a great question. I'm very lucky, because I have a co-founder that sits with me named Eric, who's extremely connected, and also spends a lot of time really researching, and connecting to one ad exchange or digit day... All of those sources. Right? But then he's also a great filter for me. So I'm blessed, in that I can actually spend a little bit less time, because I have a resource that passes me really important stuff. But I think in general, what I try to do is one, dip into the network. Because he has a great network, but so do I. Look at what other publishers are doing, make sure you understand the middle layers.

Justin: Secondly, and this is a little hard because of COVID. The most important thing was being able to get out to a couple events. Talk with publisher peers, talk with SSPs and that sort of thing. Now we're not there yet. But then, there's some virtual stuff happening, and then there's obviously being posted. From that standpoint, I think it's really just important to keep your network strong, keep it big. We're lucky, because we're in a space ad tech where people love to share information. We're not like... You could take some other spaces where they're like, "No, this is my secret stuff."

Kathleen: Right. You're not designing self-driving cars, where you can't talk about anything.

Justin: This is my piece of code, and don't ever talk to me again. We're lucky. Where normally, you can find people who just want to figure out, "What are you doing? What are you doing?" So I think that's really the best piece of advice. And then in general, just ad exchange, or digiting... Some of the more common ones, that I think people already know.

Kathleen: You mentioned events. Any particular events that should the world open up again, and in-person events proceed... Are there any that you're really excited about?

Justin: Yeah. I think... I would go to Ad Monsters every year in New York. I think that's something that will definitely come back. Programmatic IO is a big one. But in general, I think it's really as valuable... The happy hours that you would just see in New York, or... It doesn't have to necessarily be a sponsored event. A lot of the best ideas and collaboration I've had, is actually after the event. Where you get dinner with someone, or someone's like, "Hey, there's a bunch of people going to this bar." I think that's really the part that we're missing right now, because of... Just the circumstances, unfortunately.

Kathleen: So earlier in your answer to the previous question, you said you dip into your network. You mentioned that both you and Eric have really strong networks. So that is the perfect segue into my next question, which is... This podcast is all about shining the spotlight on ad ops team leaders who are doing really exceptional work. Who comes to mind when I say that? Who out there is doing outstanding work, and should be our next guest?

Justin: Yeah. So this one was hard for me to answer. So I did something that's a little rogue, and I hope you're okay with that. So I picked someone in the different layers of ad tech. So, I want to first give a shout out... Patrick Sines from Google. He's an extremely brilliant bright person. So he would be one. And then, I went on the CTV side of things. There's a company that's fairly new, called TV Scientific, that's ran, and partially ran by a guy named Jason Fairchild. I think that is something... If you want to interview someone on the CTV side of things would be really valuable for the podcast. It's definitely different than what I do, display and video. But he's formerly one of the founders of Open X, and then built a CTV company. He's got a lot of really cool insights. And then, if we go straight publisher, Lauren Gable from the Guardian, I think would be a good interview.

Kathleen: Those are all really good recommendations. And I love that you said something on CTV, because it's clear that that is the direction that so much of the advertising world is heading in. So I do think you can't have a full conversation about ad ops without talking about it. So, good ones.

Justin: Yeah, so if you go the CTV route, I think Jason would be a great choice.

Kathleen: I love it. All right. Well, Justin, this has been so much fun. I love learning more about you, and your career, and kind of just your perspective on what publishers need to be thinking about these days. If you're listening, thank you so much for joining me for this episode of the Ad Ops All Stars podcast. If you enjoyed it, please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, or the podcast platform of your choice. And to hear more interviews with leading ad ops experts, head to clean.io. And while you're there, check out our resource center to learn more about protecting your user experience, and your revenue. In the meantime, Justin, thank you. This has been great.

Justin: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Have a good one.