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Ad Ops All Stars: Jared Siegal, Aditude

by Kathleen Booth, on Aug 25, 2021 9:00:00 AM

Jared Siegal Aditude

What do the most successful publishers do when building out high performing ad ops teams?

This week on Ad Ops All Stars, Aditude Founder and CEO Jared Siegal talks about some of the most common mistakes publishers make when building out their ad ops business, and shares insights on what they can do to fix them.

Jared's ad ops career began at Answers.com, where he joined early in the company's growth and eventually was part of a team managing $150 million in programmatic revenue. From there, he went to Playbuzz, where he built out the video team, and led ad ops as well as publisher account management. 

That experience ultimately led him to create Aditude, where he helps publishers build out their ad ops functions and tech stacks. His work at Aditude gives Jared unique insights into the common challenges facing publishers, as well as the best practices that some of the most successful publishers are using to drive revenue.

Listen to or watch the full episode, or read the transcript below, to hear Jared's story.

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Transcript:

Kathleen: Welcome back to the Ad Ops All Stars podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth, and this week my guest is Jared Siegal, who is the founder and CEO of Aditude. Welcome to the podcast, Jared.

Jared: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Kathleen: Yeah, this is going to be fun. We are going to talk about a lot of different aspects of ad operations because you have an interesting perspective given what you're doing now, which we'll talk about in a minute. But I always start my interviews with the same icebreaker question. So now it is your turn to tell us, how would you explain what you do to a five-year-old?

Jared: Oh, this is a very good question. People ask me all the time, especially my family. "What do you actually do, Jared?" So I basically tell people that you go to a site and people stick images, they stick ads, to make money and I help those sites find what ads, what images, to stick on there.

Kathleen: Awesome. Perfect. Yeah. And it's funny that you say what you said about your family because I was just interviewing somebody else yesterday and they asked why I asked that specific question and it's for the exact reason that you said, because I feel like people ask all the time, "What do you do for a living?" And you can't really just answer ad ops, right? Nobody will know what you're talking about.

Jared: [crosstalk 00:01:28].

Kathleen: And it's not the easiest thing to explain. So if you can do it for a five-year-old you can do it for anybody, right?

Jared: Fair enough. If I ever mention the word auction or real-time bidding... Yes, I lose people every time.

Kathleen: The Charlie brown, "Wah, wah, wah, wah." That's what people hear. All right, cool. So you have had an interesting career. You now have this company Aditude, which we're going to talk about in just a sec, but prior to this you most recently were director of advertising and publisher operations at Playbuzz. You've been with Answers. So you've had this ad ops career and now you've gone off on your own and you're helping other publishers. So let's start from the beginning. How did you even get into this world of advertising operations in the first place? And talk to me a little bit about your career journey.

Jared: Sure. So I've been in ad ops my entire career. I did not graduate college thinking I wanted to go into ad ops. Frankly I didn't know it existed. I was dead set on going into the automotive industry. I love cars. My dog's name is Enzo Ferrari. I really wanted to design cars. That was always my dream from day one. I started college going to architecture school, thinking that's going to be my foray into it. I ended up in college starting a bunch of businesses and things that. So I got with the entrepreneurship program. And when basically Ford and Chevy and all those different companies weren't responding to my applications, I went to the entrepreneurship director at the school I was at and said, "What should I do?"

Jared: And he introduced me to the then-CEO of answers.com. He was a young guy, also went to the same school as me and he said, "I think you guys should just talk. He's got a similar background to you. You guys have similar personalities. Just go learn what he does and maybe he can guide you." So I met with him the next week. 30 minutes later he offered me a job. I accepted, but I didn't know what I was going to do. So my first day at Answers, they sat me down, they said, "Okay, what are you doing? What do you want to do?"

Kathleen: He hired you without a job? I love that.

Jared: Yeah. It was pretty awesome. And my parents always told me to be on the revenue generating side and not on the cost side. So I said, "Whatever, however you guys make money, that's what I want to do." So they called it the rev ops department and I was their first hire. So we were working on it and figuring out, "We only run AdSense. How do we get DFP at the time? How do we integrate DFP?" All that kind of stuff. So I basically learned from scratch with the company and I was really fortunate to get in at the right time to learn all of that with the rest of the team.

Jared: So fast forward four years, the business grew from two people in the rev ops department to 20. We have a huge marketing department. We have 600 employees. We're doing 150 million a year in programmatic revenue and it became a huge, huge company. And I was fortunate enough just to get in at the right time and grow with the business. So at a pretty young age I ended up leading multiple departments and having a lot of I'd say influence on the business direction and things like that. So worked out quite well in my favor.

Jared: When I was there I was PlayBuzz's biggest partner. We were running their quizzes on our site and I became very good friends with the GM of North America, takes me out for a glass of whiskey, offers me a job. I took the job out in New York, moved out to New York, and had a similar experience there. First person in that department in the United States and ended up helping them grow out their video business. I was leading not just ad ops, but also the publisher account management team. And that's really how all of my eventual business came to be, is having so many conversations every day with different publishers, not just about what I was directly working on, but everything else that was going on in their business.

Kathleen: So tell me a little bit about what Aditude does then.

Jared: Sure. So we are an ad ops and development company. So we work with publishers to basically build out whatever they need from a revenue generation perspective, whether that be purely what you think of in terms of ad operations or actually developing technology for them. And then we have a little bit of a different approach than a lot of the other businesses in the space in that we literally build the technology and give it to that publisher. So rather than doing rev shares or SaaS models, things like that, we say, "No, we're going to build it for you. We're going to teach you how to use it. If you want to use it and maintain it yourself, go for it. That's great. It's yours. If you want to keep us on to maintain it and continue to build more products and optimize the site, et cetera, et cetera, we'll stay on for that as well."

Jared: So two and a half years after starting it, we're helping about 250 sites. In most cases we run both ad ops and development. And we've built things around Prebid and flooring and layout templates. And we have integrations with all these different cool companies, including Clean, to help our publishers ensure that they're basically maximizing right.

Kathleen: That's cool. So you have a really interesting perspective then on ad ops today, right? I feel when I have these conversations one of the themes is always it's evolved so much. And so many of these businesses started out with direct sales operations and have really evolved. And it's become so much more programmatic today, which has implications structurally for how you build out your team as well as your tech stack, as you've alluded to. The other thing that you mentioned, the word that you mentioned that made me perk up, was video, because that's becoming a larger part of everybody's portfolio I think these days.

Kathleen: And so I want to talk about all of this, but the first thing I was going to say, going back to one of your first comments, is that you started out wanting to go into the automotive world. And I had to laugh because one of the last interviews I did was with Keith Candiotti from Optimera. And he said he started out wanting to be an auto mechanic and then went into ad ops. So I'm like, "I need to introduce you guys because you probably have a lot in common," but it's funny. There's something about ad-ops people that... The thread I'm starting to see is that they all want to know how stuff works. They want to literally and figuratively look under the hood and understand it all. And so in some ways it makes so much sense to me that there's this thread of automotive interest going on.

Jared: I like it though.

Kathleen: Yeah, yeah. Right. Because especially the technology is evolving so much that fuels how companies do ad operations. And if you're not somebody who's curious and wants to understand how things work I don't think he would survive very long in that role.

Jared: Yeah. I mean, I'd say I spend 90% of my time just reading and digging into technology around Prebid and just Google Ad Manager in general just to try to understand what's going on, what are the things that I can improve. I'm not a developer, but that's what I'm interested in. And that's what I really focus on because that's how we add value to publishers versus just the traditional, like you said. Direct sales are great, but not everyone can do that.

Kathleen: And you guys come in and you really make sure that publishers are set up correctly and have a really well-running optimized stack and ad operations function. So I'm curious. You have this insight into all these different ad ops functions within these companies. What are the things that you see as the main mistakes publishers are generally making when it comes to ad ops?

Jared: Fair enough. That's a really loaded question. I'd say there's a few things. So the first thing is thinking about what demand partners you should be working with. When I started out 10 years ago, the SSPs, the people that were really important, some of them don't even exist anymore. And the ones that are the most important, think of a TripleLift just sold for over a billion dollars, didn't exist then. So educating publishers on which companies they should be working with and which ones they probably don't need to work with anymore.

Kathleen: And what's your criteria? I'm not going to ask you to obviously name names, but what criteria do you use to determine, "Okay, this is one we should work with versus this is not?"

Jared: There's a few factors that go into it. One is just which SSPs spend the most on average across our entire publisher set. The typical one through five is almost identical on all the 250 roughly sites that we work with. But beyond that, it's the category of content that that publisher focuses on. So certain SSPs are more endemic to certain categories. And some do not like other categories. So it's important to understand that and you don't really learn that without just testing and figuring it out, but the more publishers we get in each category, we build up that knowledge base and from day one can propose to a new client, "This is who you should be working with. I see you're working with this company. They're probably not spending, right? No, they're not? Okay, this is why. Let's not focus on that."

Jared: So that I'd say that's pretty important. The other thing is just the generic or the general setup in Google Ad Manager. And people think, "Simple. Just create some ad units, create some line items, some creatives, that's it. Everything works." There's a lot of really, really subtle nuances in GAM where you make one change, for example, with the way that Google runs Native and that can fundamentally torture CPMs or really improve it. So we have our checklists which I'm not going to go into, but we have our checklist whenever we sign a new client of all the things we first look at inside of Google Ad Manager. And there's a few changes that within a few minutes, we can probably get in 10%, 15%.

Kathleen: Any that you're willing to share? One? One little tip?

Jared: Native. I'll just give a hint. Like I said, Native is a really big one. I'd say 99% of publishers that we work with when I look, they've sit Native up incorrectly inside of Google Ad Manager. And it took me a while to figure out how to properly set it up with the help from Google. But even with some really big clients that we work with and we've made them literally millions of dollars by making a two minute change in [crosstalk 00:13:08].

Kathleen: Wow. That's pretty impactful. Yeah. Oh my Gosh. All right. So SSP choice, how you have GAM set up, any other big-

Jared: Obviously we're pretty big in Prebid. Our wrappers on all those sites. That's not a requirement to work with us, but obviously we to help in that way because that's where we invest a lot of our development resources. So we spend a lot of time when we're onboarding new publishers looking at who they're working with... If they are. Sometimes they don't even know how Prebid functions or even just haven't invested the time to build it out. But if they are working with it, what version are they on? Did they build themselves? Are they working with a third party? What kind of optimizations can we make there? Are they calling the right sizes in the right places? Some of the things that you think are obvious but are missing in most cases.

Kathleen: Interesting. And when you see those types of common issues... And it sounds this is the case with the Native stuff. Are you able to come in and is it like within a week, we've got this machine humming and this is the low hanging fruit where you come in and they're like, "Oh my God, I'm so happy I hired you!"

Jared: Yeah. Yeah. So that's typically what the process looks like. We'll sign a contract, we'll go live... Say we have a new publisher actually going live on Monday. That's going to be the first thing I look at, is with our GAM set up is. We have everyone on Slack. We have hundreds of Slack channels that we've got going on. I'll send them the feedback. "Hey, we noticed these things are incorrectly set up. Give us the thumbs up to make those changes." We'll push it right then and there.

Jared: So we try to make those, like you said, really low hanging fruit changes day one, because if we can start showing through hourly reporting, "Hey, we made this quick change, look how much money you're already making," that leads into, "Okay, now let's move on to Prebid. Let's move onto website redesign. Let's move onto maybe you don't like the infrastructure you have, like the CDN or the server that you're using. Let's work on all those different things to help you." Because like I said, there's a lot of stuff that we work on that helps generate revenue that's not what you'd think of as maybe just standard ad ops.

Kathleen: Yeah. I used to own a marketing agency for 11 years. And those things that you could do in the first few weeks with a new client relationship that had a big impact were the holy grail for kicking off your new customer relationship in a way that that was really positive. So that's great.

Kathleen: The other thing I'm curious about is, given the state of ad ops today, there's a lot going on between Google potentially deprecating third party cookies and all the identity, trust stuff... There's just a lot. And that's what you hear people talk about, but I feel there's also a lot of other things that are maybe less sexy going on that publishers struggle with. What do you see as right now, at this point in time, the biggest pain points that most publishers are grappling with?

Jared: Sure. I think some of the stuff you mentioned is top of mind for publishers, especially with the cookie apocalypse and how publishers build out their own first party audience data set. Whether they fully understand how to do that or what to do with that... I don't think really anyone knows what to do with that stuff. But that is something that a lot of publishers we're working with are trying to figure out, like how to get subscriptions and capture email, and maybe even do ad free models where they're getting recurring payments through a monthly invoice or something like that.

Jared: But probably the two biggest areas that I see publishers right now and it's having an immediate impact today is what to do on iOS and what to do with video. So iOS, in my opinion, a super valuable audience, right. Very expensive phones to get an iPhone, but obviously it doesn't monetize well at all because there's no cookies. And Apple just keeps making further and further changes to make that more impossible. So working on technologies to identify who the user is outside of cookies, working with certain advertisers that focus primarily or only exclusively on iOS devices, things like that. That's what we've been trying to help our publishers with. And also frankly changing their layouts based on browser and device to better suit what performs well, what types of formats perform well on iOS. It's a lot of the more higher impact, less traditional banner units that at least generate somewhat comparable CPMs to other devices.

Jared: So we spend a lot of time focusing on that and then on video as well. There's a million video companies out there. There's a million options for SSPs to work with, content creation platforms. What do you do? Do you create a ton of content in house? Do you have a full section of your site that's just video? Do you have one of those sticky players? Do you do both? So we try to advise all of our publishers on what makes sense for their audience. In some cases where it's a new site or a proper editorial site having full length video content makes a lot of sense, right? Their users are coming for that kind of stuff. If it's a celebrity gossip site, probably the same thing. But if it's more of a generic lifestyle site, maybe that doesn't matter. That's not that important because your users aren't coming to watch a 30 minute clip.

Jared: So we try to advise them on what platforms to use, what types of content to create, what advertisers to work with, and also how to keep their costs down because video is very, very, very expensive from a serving fee perspective. So we try to focus a lot on that. So I'd say those two areas right now are probably 50%, 60% of what we spend our time on.

Kathleen: Now, when it comes to video, a scale of one to 10, where would you say most publishers are on I guess what I would term the video adoption curve?

Jared: Well, I would say at least in our subset, almost every single publisher that we work with is running video at this point. Ask me that a year ago it would have been very, very, very different. The more positive results we see, the more I convince or suggest publishers to do the same thing.

Jared: In terms of publishers bring it in house, I'd say most don't do that. And our whole thing is building out tech and training publishers to do it themselves. So we really try to encourage publishers to do anything related to video themselves in house. We'll help them with that. But to own that, I'd say most publishers opt down the route of, "Let's just hand this off to some third party company and have them figure out the content and the demand and [crosstalk 00:20:28]"

Kathleen: Is that because they don't have the people in house who understand it?

Jared: I think that's part of it. I think there's also this general sense in our space that video is a lot more complicated than it really is. And frankly when I was at Answers 10 years ago, it was extremely complicated and there was no way we would have ever invested in trying to build it out ourselves. But nowadays it's a lot more simplified. There's so many platforms out there that help you do at really minimal cost. So I think there's just that general sense and people haven't quite caught up to where the tech is today, where three, four years ago, if I went to a publisher said, "Hey, let's build out your own video player and your own video server and all this kind of stuff," people said, "You're crazy, Jared. That's going to cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars and months and months of development." Not true anymore, but people haven't quite caught up to that.

Kathleen: So it's a perception gap really?

Jared: Yeah, absolutely.

Kathleen: Interesting. And is budget part of it too? I mean, you mentioned it being expensive, but it sounds like the cost has come down. Is that still prohibitive if you're a smaller publisher?

Jared: It can be. And that's where we try to suggest different routes. There are some very premium video platforms out there that I'm sure you're aware of that are extremely expensive because they offer every bell and whistle you could ever imagine, whereas if you're a publisher with half a million page views a month, you probably don't need to spend $20,000 a month to have video. So, again, the market hasn't quite caught up to all the options that are out there right now. So whether you're a really tiny publisher or one of the top 10 publishers in the world, there's options out there that are cost-effective and meet your needs. And we just try to both advise publishers on what's best for them, but also we build it out for them. So when they say, "Okay, this is what I want to do," we take over that process, we build it all out, and then we just hand it to them, or in most cases we just deploy it directly for them.

Kathleen: Yeah. Now, when I think about video, one of the other things that springs to mind is core web vitals and heavy ads and latency and all of those things that can slow down a page and lead to hurting your rankings, et cetera. Talk me through how you approach that as part of your overall strategy with publishers.

Jared: Sure. So it's obviously a lot more important now than it was even a few months ago. What's really interesting... This is maybe a little bit of an aside, but if you actually start looking through a lot of what Google is docking you for in terms of core web vitals, most of it's actually Google's own scripts, which is [inaudible 00:23:21] byproduct. But one of the things that we've been working on for years, because it not only impacts core web vitals, but just UX and time on site, is something called reflow. So the page moving around as the user is scrolling down, whether it be desktop, tablet, or mobile. So we've had solutions in place for all of the templates that we build out for all of our clients to minimize, if not completely remove, that aspect of-

Kathleen: Can I just say thank you-

Jared: [crosstalk 00:23:51].

Kathleen: Because as a consumer of media, nothing bothers me more... And there's one particular major network news website that I think just... It violates this egregiously and I go on the site and I'm trying to scroll through an article and I think because of all the lazy loading, it's like, "Wait, where did it go? It's coming up. It's coming down." It drives me bananas.

Jared: Yeah. So we have our own unique way of lazy loading that we came up with two years ago, because, one, that drives me nuts and two, that can very much impact your Google whatever you want to call it... Your Google score inside of AdEx and things like that. They dock you for things like that.

Kathleen: And I'm sure it causes users to click on things they didn't mean to click on because they're trying to scroll, but then all of a sudden something's where their finger was going and it wasn't there before.

Jared: Right, exactly why AdEx has their own metrics around that stuff. So we built something out a few years ago around that. When we have new clients that come on board and they've already got their own templates and we're just helping them with Prebid and just general ad ops, that's always one of our suggestions. "Okay, let's work on fixed heights. Let's work on proper lazy loading. Let's ensure that the page is not jumping around."

Jared: Then in terms of other scripts and third-party scripts that are impacting the speed of the site and your core web vitals and frankly the time to load... How quickly is this site actually usable? There's a lot of stuff that we work on in terms of minifying scripts and caching things on the CDN. We really try not to put anything directly on the page. We're a big fan of Cloudflare and we put just about everything that we can onto Cloudflare and cache it and really try to minimize how big each file has to be to just the bare necessities.

Jared: So one of the things that I'm a really big proponent of is not to have all of your tech in one place, meaning don't have your reporting linked to Prebid linked to the way that you load GAM. Okay? Because if one thing breaks, they all break. But also that file just becomes so ginormous that it does impact your core web vitals and just generally the speed of the site. So we separate every single piece of tech that we do, cache it, minify it, and make the file as small as possible.

Jared: And then beyond that we do work a lot with WordPress sites and we'll work on reducing latency around plugins and choosing which plugins make sense and which cases it just makes more sense to just develop it directly and how we do things around image loading and caching or lazy loading of images instead of having a site that loads all their images upfront. That obviously impacts core web vitals. So there's quite a bit that we do there.

Jared: Frankly we use the page speed insights all the time just to measure how the site is performing, because not only does it impact your ranking in Google, it impacts your reach on Facebook, it impacts your reach on Twitter. Both of those companies are looking at the speed of the site and the feedback that they're getting in terms of how long their users stay on your page to determine how much traffic you get. So it's been important for a long time, but now Google is specifically saying, "Get your act together or we're going to hurt your ranking."

Kathleen: So it's one thing for Google to say that, but I wonder when you talk to publishers... I've started to hear some chatter around heavy ads, but not as much as I thought I would. And so I'm curious, with the publishers that you talk to, is this something that's top of mind for them, or do you feel they're still in more of a reactive mode?

Jared: So core web vitals is definitely top of mind. The heavy ad concept isn't. When it first came out on Chrome a few months ago, I'll be honest I panicked a little bit because I started seeing a lot of the SSPs that we work with that are very big producers for one of those top five companies getting constantly flagged by Google Chrome, like "Heavy ad. Heavy ad. Heavy ad." And of course understanding, "Do we get paid for that? How does that work?" Et cetera, et cetera. And obviously it's that's confusing, but also the UX is terrible when you see black boxes everywhere that's saying, "Ad removed."

Jared: I think most of the advertising platforms out there reacted really quickly and I rarely, rarely see that anymore. When it comes specifically to video, because that is problem with video, that's when I mentioned before we really work with publishers on trying to minimize their costs because there's a lot of streaming costs involved. A lot of the time when it comes down to video it's not actually the ads. It's the content that's being flagged, but because it's in a player Google Chrome can't understand that. So we work with publishers on shrinking the size of the file. What format should that file be on? Should we stream it in real time or cache it? Things like that to reduce the likelihood that their actual content gets blocked by Google.

Kathleen: Yeah. That makes sense. Interesting. So when you think about what's going to unfold in the next year to two years with all the stuff we've talked about, core web vitals, identity, the regulations that are coming down here in the US as well as abroad, what are you most focused on in of proactively getting out ahead to keep your publishers well-positioned for success?

Jared: Sure. So I think the combination of the cookieless environment and those user identification modules is a really big focus for us right now. We've integrated with all of the major user ID modules that are out there. Data in terms of whether it's helping right now or not still very confusing if there's a good way to measure any of that. My gut tells me it has to be helping. It can't be hurting.

Jared: But tagging along with that comment I made earlier around subscriptions and emails and things like that, that's something that we've really been pushing a lot, especially with our larger publishers that haven't focused on that, but have the ability to capture that kind of data, because we really are heads down on getting half emails and passing that into all the different partners like a Live Ramp and whatever it may be, because it seems like a valid way of counteracting this cookieless environment. And there's probably some options for a scaled play there where you can do it at a network level instead of at a publisher level. So these are all things that we're not only thinking about, we're actively testing some solutions right now.

Kathleen: Interesting. I can't wait to see what you guys do, because it sounds you're definitely on the bleeding edge of a lot of this.

Kathleen: All right. We're going to change gears because otherwise we're going to run out of time. And I want to ask you the two questions that I always ask all of my guests, the first one being as we've just talked about, everything's constantly changing. Just when you think you've mastered ad ops something happens, right? So what are your go-to sources to keep yourself educated and make sure that you are staying on top of all of this?

Jared: Okay. So this may sound crazy, but whenever there's something I don't know how to do or it's a new topic that Google hasn't written something up on or whatever it may be, I go to Reddit. Reddit is such a good source of ad ops knowledge and just general marketing knowledge because so many major publishers and even ad ops companies that post questions and answers on there. And especially around Prebid, if there's ever anything I can't figure out there's almost always a solution on Reddit. So really like that.

Jared: And then I have probably three calls a week with different Google reps. And we're in a fortunate situation where, because we're doing ad ops on behalf of all these publishers, we get access to their reps, not just them. So we're constantly picking their brains about, "What are you guys working on? How is this working? What do you think we should be testing here? What's coming out? What betas do you have?" Et cetera, et cetera. So I feel like we're in a good position to learn what's about to happen probably as fast as we can from that perspective. But yeah, those are really the two biggest sources of knowledge for us.

Kathleen: Now, the Reddit thing makes sense. I've been so amazed at how strong and active the ad ops community is on Reddit. And by extension I know there's a Slack channel that came out of that Reddit. And so it's interesting. Moreso than in some of the other industries I've worked it's a very active community there, so that makes sense.

Kathleen: All right. Second question. We always to profile ad ops leaders who are doing great work on the podcast. So is there somebody in particular that you think is really setting the standard for what it means to be a great ad ops leader who you think should be our next guest?

Jared: Yeah, that's a good question. So I spent a lot of time thinking about this. I work with literally hundreds of ad ops people with all of our different clients. So there's someone that I want to recommend who actually helped start my business in that he referred me to a few of our first clients. His name's Neil Aurora and he runs ad ops for Slickdeals. Obviously quite a large company. Their monetization in app is really impressive. They've done some stuff that I did not think was possible inside their app. And then frankly I pick his brain quite a bit about that. And we're working with them now and they've been a great client. So I think he would be a perfect fit for your show.

Kathleen: Oh, he sounds a really interesting guy. And now I want to ask him all about his in-app strategies. So cool. Thank you for sharing that. No, this has been great. I've loved just getting to pick your brain and hear your perspective on things just because you work with so many publishers. It's such a unique point of view that I think other people don't have. You can be a great ad ops leader in a publisher, but you're really sitting in your own bubble. So having your insight is fascinating.

Jared: Thank you.

Kathleen: Well, if you're listening to this episode and you enjoyed it, consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or the platform of your choice and hear more interviews with leading ad ops experts. Head to clean.io and while you're there, check out our resource center to learn more about protecting your user experience and your revenue. In the meantime, thank you so much, Jared. This was a ton of fun. I can't wait to share this with listeners.

Jared: Thank you very much for having me. It's great.

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