Ad Ops All Stars: Emily Morin, US News & World Report

by Kathleen Booth, on Aug 4, 2021 9:00:00 AM

Emily MorinWhat skills do ad ops leaders need to develop to advance in their careers?

This week on Ad Ops All Stars, U.S News & World Report Director of Ad Technology & Platforms Emily Morin talks about why, as an ad ops leader, it is so important to develop a well rounded understanding of the media business. 

Emily's approach to building her career is based on the theme of what she calls "holistic unification" - which refers to bringing together all of the different sides of the media business. From content, to business strategy, to marketing, web development and technology, she's made it her mission to learn more about what drives success in the media world.

Her well-rounded background has made Emily the natural choice to spearhead major organizational changes at publishers like Hearst and U.S. News & World Report, and in this episode, Emily shares advice on how to manage change as an ad ops leader, navigating relationships with other teams, and why she's a fan of agile management. 

Listen to or watch the full episode, or read the transcript below, to hear Emily's story.

Resources from this episode:

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Kathleen Booth: Welcome back to the Ad Ops All Stars podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth. And this week, my guest is Emily Morin, who is the Director of Ad Technology & Platforms at U.S. News & World Report. Welcome to the podcast, Emily.

Emily Morin: Thank you so much, Kathleen. It's fantastic to be here.

Kathleen Booth: I am super excited to talk to you because I got a little preview of our conversation yesterday, and I feel like this could easily become a very, very long interview, but we'll try and keep it to a reasonable length for people listening. So folks who've listened to this podcast before know I always start out first by asking an icebreaker question, which is if you had to describe what you do to a five-year-old, how would you do that? So let's hear your answer to that question.

Emily Morin: That sounds like a fun question. If I had to describe what I do, I would probably say when mom and dad opened the internet and you're looking at a website and you see some different advertisements pop up, those are the items that I work on. And that also support the business of that particular website. So we actually are able to basically support the website with those ads. So that's how I would probably describe overall advertising.

Kathleen Booth: That's pretty good.

Emily Morin: Yeah.

Kathleen Booth: I like that-

Emily Morin: To a five-year-old.

Kathleen Booth: So let's back up now because we know you're at U.S. News & World Report today, but I'm curious to know what your career journey has been. What did you start out doing and how did you wind up in this interesting industry that nobody goes to college for?

Emily Morin: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I definitely didn't go to college for Ad Ops almost 15 years ago. I actually was a classical flutist in a very high stress performance career. And a friend who worked at the San Francisco Chronicle said there was a job opening and I fell into the career, came in for an interview, was hired on the spot and the rest is history. And I worked my way in a variety of different jobs at the San Francisco Chronicle and then came out to New York City back in 2013 to lead a team at Hearst Newspapers, overseeing countrywide Ad Ops teams and all of the goals at Hearst. So it's been a definite change from the performance background that I had.

Kathleen Booth: Yeah, this is so fascinating to me for a couple of reasons. One, you're definitely the first person who was basically a professional musician that I've spoken to, who's now got into ad ops, but like you said, a few things that stuck out to me, one was that you were in a high stress performance situation, and I can definitely see how the high stress translates into ad-ops and your ability to remain unruffled when you're under deadline and there's a lot going on. But you said that when you interviewed for your first ad-ops job, and it sounds like you didn't have any experience that they hired you on the spot. So what I'm super curious about is did you ever get feedback from the hiring manager about what it was that they saw in you that made them think we need this person to be on our ad ops team?

Emily Morin: It's a great question. I think what's so amazing about ad operations is that really no one comes from that background. And for me, having that performance, having that ability to dive right in kind of look at things both holistically, but also be in the moment, be technical and diligent. There's just so many transferable skills that I think it brings a wide variety of people, which I think makes it a really fun and well-rounded career to be in. And I have a lot of energy and a lot of excitement and a lot of curiosity for what's going on in the world and how digital advertising is a piece of that. And so I think I would say probably my enthusiasm and curiosity are two big strengths that definitely led me well in this career path so far.

Kathleen Booth: Yeah. It's fascinating because I'm probably 11 or 12 episodes into this podcast and I'm beginning to see these themes emerge. And one of the really clear themes is when I talked to anybody about hiring for ad ops roles or the types of people who are successful, this notion of curiosity keeps coming up and it comes up in different ways. Some people have said I love the podcast or the show, how stuff works or another subset. I've just always like figuring out how things work. And they're all different ways of saying the same thing. Like people who when presented with something they don't fully understand or like a dog with a bone and they they'll hold on until they figure it out. And that definitely seems to be one of the things that is a huge predictor of success in this field.

Emily Morin: I think definitely. I think because there's always something new happening, there's always more coming in real time. I think that's part of the performance thing. There's always something coming that's different and it really requires an excitement to learn and to engage with other people, communicate, figure out what's coming next and how to approach things, just looking at it kind of like a puzzle, like a complicated puzzle and everything fitting together and how everything might fit together. And so I think curiosity is a prerequisite for all of that troubleshooting and all of the fun things that come with ad ops. So I think that makes sense that you've heard it as a recurring theme.

Kathleen Booth: Yeah. Now the other thing that I think is really interesting, so it's one thing to get your foot in the door and get your first job, because as you mentioned, nobody in the very beginning of their ad-ops career comes with experience. There isn't a degree for it, somebody is taking it on faith that you're going to be able to figure it out and come into this world and make the job work. But then there's a whole nother set of complications that enter into the picture as you advance in your career. And one of the things that I think is so interesting about ad ops is that it's very technically complex or at least it has become so, and it's not just about advertising, right?

Kathleen Booth: It's really about technology and understanding how all the different technology works together. And this was one of the reasons I was really interested to talk to you because your title is Director of Ad Technology & Platforms. And so I love that A, it acknowledges the technology element to what you do, but I'm interested to hear from you as your career advanced, as somebody who didn't come from a technical background, how did you position yourself for success and advancement specifically on the technical side and get to where you are today?

Emily Morin: It's a really, really great question. And I think it stems back to when I was in an ad trafficking role. And I had basically, started out on the client side, kind of supporting client teams, whether you call that account support, different companies have different things, but I kind of went a different route in the beginning and was like, "Maybe with my energy and my enthusiasm, I'd be great at sales or sales planning, or putting together decks." And it just didn't feel that holistic well-rounded thing for me, that didn't feel to be where my strengths lied. And so I went back and took a job as an ad trafficker and started to get into some of the technical acts of advertising and different products as well. And so we were building new apps and we were doing different things from a technical perspective.

Emily Morin: And I ended up getting a position as an ad ops specialist because I was the person on the team getting that first promotion who was always eager to figure out what's going on here. I don't need to wait for the developer to tell me, I can look at this myself, what tools do I have? How can I learn more? If I work with the developers closely, I can learn from them and figure out what they're working on and how this whole language works. And there's really many languages, of course, as many people know within web development. But it's how you're able to read and process what's going on in the backside of a website that allows you to then start to dig in and really figure out how does this whole thing work together.

Emily Morin: And I hope we get into that later a little bit about the intersection between advertising and content, because whatever the platform is, whether it's a podcast or whether it's a website or an app, there's just such a great conversation and such a great interplay between advertising and the content being received by the user. So anyway, that was a pivotal point, that role.

Kathleen Booth: Yeah, I was going to say, let's get into it now, because it's interesting for me to hear you talk about it because I've always been a marketer, which is, I would say like a cousin to ad ops, right? Not a brother or sister, more like a cousin, but I know what you mean when you say understanding the language, because I owned an agency for 11 years and one of the things we did was design websites and I was a political science major. So I too had to figure out like, how do things work behind the scenes? And I always joke that I know enough, like CSS and HTML to be dangerous, right? I can get in and I can edit the code if I know there's a problem.

Kathleen Booth: And it's so true. What you said that, "If you don't have that curiosity and you're not motivated to get in and really look behind the scenes and figure out the root of a problem, you're ultimately not going to be successful because there are always going to be problems." All the stuff that we do on the internet, all of the ways that we design websites that we place ads, it traces its roots back to code. And if you can't at least understand and spot where basic problems are in the code, it is going to be an inhibiting factor in your career, in my opinion.

Emily Morin: I absolutely couldn't agree more with you. And I think that's why I keep coming back to a phrase that keeps coming up in my mind is holistic unification. I think I mentioned it to you yesterday, but it's just really bringing together kind of all of the different sides of the business. And one of the things that, like I said, what I think can kind of kickstart one's career is just a complete curiosity for all different sides of the business. So if you know, what's going on, on the content side, you know what's going on, on the executive side, the business strategy, the marketing side, that only makes you stronger. And again, the same with web development. If you think about front end developers often start there before they go into backend development. It's the same thing because as you get deeper and deeper and deeper into your career, you're just really, well-rounding out all aspects of the levels in an organization. And then also all aspects of the technology.

Emily Morin: So for me, it was, I want to learn apps. I want to learn TV, OTT, digital, which I did a little bit at Tribune. I want to learn websites. I want to learn every aspect and angle of this crazy Rubik's cube if you will, that I can then tackle things from any perspective. And so I think that led me to my, in a sense kind of my dream role or my current role now, which I think is a really good hybrid or liked we talked about yesterday, an intersection of all of these different aspects, creative business strategy combined with, like you said, the language and technical aspect of the behind the scenes and teaching others, right? The farther that you get up, the daisy chain, the more you're able to give back and to teach those around you, which only makes them stronger. And so it's just really kind of getting that full well-rounded perspective. So that's what I would say.

Kathleen Booth: I love listening to you talk about this and your enthusiasm, because all I can think of is like, "Man, I wish I had extra hours in the day." Because I can see your passion for learning and figuring it all out. The thing that really stood out to me from what you just said was having the curiosity to understand other parts of the business. And when you started to talk about holistic and unification, what I associated then when I heard you talk about that was what's happening right now with cookies and trust and privacy.

Kathleen Booth: And I'm sort of an outsider. I haven't been an ad ops for a long time, like the folks that I interview, but I can see that there are certain organizations that really strategically laid the groundwork for this by developing their own first party audiences, whether that was through email and newsletter strategies or what have you. And so, now you see how, perhaps the lack of doing that sort of thing, the lack of preparation could really hurt somebody who's in more of an operational ad ops role. And so this is all a very long way of saying I'm starting to see really how, yes, you might be an ad ops person, but if you're not looking past the horizon and you're not involved in these other aspects of the businesses, it's going to catch up with you and your ability to be successful.

Emily Morin: I absolutely couldn't agree more. I think it started internally in companies a long time before third-party cookies and whether or not they'll be deprecated tomorrow or in two years. I think it started back with organizations starting to think a little bit smarter internally and centralizing, internally within their organizations. And now that's kind of become something that people are starting to unify the user and who the users are and who they are when they're coming to the website and figuring out their path and their journey, just like someone internally's path and journey. This is someone who's coming to the website, what's their journey look like, what are they ingesting? What are they consuming? What are they liking? What are they not liking? And both in and outside of subscriber based models.

Emily Morin: So I won't name names, but there are the publishers who are focused on subscription models and that's fantastic. And then there's those who have a more anonymous user base. And I would say being at U.S. News, we're building a nice hybrid between the two, right? So the best of both worlds. And so, being able to kind of figure out what's our user's journey path and the importance of that, regardless of whether or not you're appending third-party data, you have the ability to have third party cookies, really being able to start to figure out who's coming to your site.

Emily Morin: How are they getting there? What are they doing? What do they like doing? Why are they doing it. Again curiosity, curiosity leads you down this funnel to figure out, "Okay, now how do we best serve this person?" And one of the most important things being, how do we keep their trust, their loyalty and not kind of do something without their full consent and transparency as a company? And I think, that's something we're talking at U.S. News and something, I think many other publishers are tackling and approaching methodically with now just a little bit of extra time.

Kathleen Booth: Yeah. And I feel like most of the people I speak with are saying we're not waiting for Google, we can see that this is where everything's heading. And so, while they've given us a reprieve, we're heading down the path regardless. Is that sort of the same position that you all are taking?

Emily Morin: That's absolutely our position. We're full steam ahead in building this incredible ecosystem that is user first and focused on those consuming our content and keeping that loyal relationship between us and our users while having a meaningful story for them to come and experience with our content. So, absolutely. I think that's the map for where we're going, regardless of how long these cookies take to deprecate.

Kathleen Booth: Yeah, exactly.

Emily Morin: It could be awhile.

Kathleen Booth: Yeah. So let's shift gears for a second because you've managed different ad ops teams. What's the largest team you've ever managed?

Emily Morin: That's true. I've overseen multiple teams across the country indirectly. So I didn't have all of them directly reporting under me. That would have been crazy, but I did indirectly oversee many, many different teams at Hearst Newspapers when I came to work for the corporate office. So again, maybe another way of saying it is the micro and macro level of these different managerial experiences. So one was managing a team of seven ad ops folks, clients, and ad traffickers, side people. And again, didn't mention this before, but have a bit of a teaching background as well with private students. So having one-on-one experiences with a small finite team, they need the time to really build their career goals, teach them things, learn from them, see what their eagerness is, and really get that excitement going between a one-on-one type of relationship.

Emily Morin: And then, coming out to New York after that, to work on a larger scale team, a much more macro level, having the ability to work across the organization, bringing multiple cities together in teams about operations, to lead things, really from the platform and infrastructure side at the corporate level. So I was able to roll out when we had an ad server migration or really anything that we had to do that was going to affect all of the greater teams, I was the one who could help kind of centralize everybody, bring everybody together and get everybody rowing in the same direction. And that's where I think unification really started for me was at Hearst. It was when things were really coming together as an organization and really kind of trying to row in the same direction. So it's been a fantastic ride as far as managing different teams for sure.

Kathleen Booth: So that's so interesting. You talked about rolling out big new initiatives and how you played a key role in getting everybody rowing in the same direction. I feel like a lot of people who are listening are probably going to face that challenge soon if they have not already with all of these privacy changes and some of the other regulatory changes that are coming. And so do you have any advice for somebody else listening who might be in an ad ops leadership position about the best way to manage that process of rolling out a big change? Everything from communicating to collaborating with other parts of the business, to getting everybody on board as part of that rollout?

Emily Morin: Yeah, I have two. Have a very detail oriented, organized project plan. Be very diligent and thorough in the preparation in planning. And communication, communication, communication. It's my number one thing, that and trust it's so important. So whether you're pulling together multiple teams in an organization, working with other companies, listen to those around you, learn from them, communicate with them, hear what they have to say and there's no such thing as over-communicating in my book, engaging with others is the best way to have success. And so for me, that is my number one thing, when I'm rolling something out to a larger team. It's just definitely working with others, using their strengths within a rollout and just being super organized and on top of things from a project managerial standpoint, is doing your due diligence on your side of things. So that would be my best advice and don't hesitate to use others, right? We're all here to help each other, I think, in the industry.

Kathleen Booth: Yeah. Now what other teams within your organization do you interface with the most?

Emily Morin: Oh, my. I work with pretty much everybody. That's one of the things I love, we're a 300 plus organization, a very, very close family type of organization. And so I get to work with the CEO, the C level folks at U.S. News, which is fantastic experience down to anybody else in the company from editorial, business intelligence, sales, product. And then I directly support or directly manage the engineers for the advertising side. They work on all of the initiatives for our advertising for programmatic and direct. And so they work under my guidance with what initiatives we're needing to do digitally on the advertising side. So it's really anybody, anybody, and everybody at the company.

Kathleen Booth: So what does that meeting cadence or that communication cadence look like? Because I feel like that could easily become a job where your title is like chief meeting goer. You know what I mean? You could spend all your time just in meetings doing all that coordination. So what's the rhythm of how you communicate with others within the organization and how do you balance that with the need to get work done?

Emily Morin: It's a really good question. Like I said, I'm super organized and try to be very diligent. So it's daily sprints and sprint planning with the engineers that keeps stuff very focused and detailed driven with what we need to get done. As far as the other teams, we do have a fantastic project management team. So I do work closely with them. I don't have to project manage for the company or anything like that. So that really helps when it's interplay between all their different divisions. And again, I forgot to mention some like design or whoever else is really involved in a project. And so I think that definitely helps save people.

Emily Morin: I also think that one of the things that, I've learned further in my career is who the audience is and when it's important to pull in which resources. So I think there's a difference between updating at a high level macro level for executive say twice a month versus the more day-to-day or even weekly meetings with other folks that you're working with more regularly for me, obviously on the revenue programmatic direct digital advertising side of the business, but of course, with other folks as well. So I think it's just being smart. 30 minute meetings are excellent, excellent ways to-

Kathleen Booth: 25 minute meetings are even better. There's a setting in Google where you can shave five minutes off of every meeting. It's great.

Emily Morin: Maybe I'm going to start doing that, Kathleen. That's sounds like a good idea. Yeah.

Kathleen Booth: Yeah. That's great. I mean, I know I suffer from that challenge constantly. It's like, how do I get the meetings off my calendar so I can do the work that we talk about doing in the meetings? You sound like you're incredibly organized and you're a great communicator and teacher. What would you say is your biggest challenge that you face in your day to day?

Emily Morin: Those are some great compliments. Thank you. The biggest challenges. I think just one of the things that I mentioned yesterday, I think we were talking is just resilience. And I think one of the things that it can be challenging is just getting thrown curve balls, right? Whether they're internal or external. So if you are organized like me and a planner and you have a lovely plan or roadmap of things that you want to accomplish, you also have to have that room both on a day to day and on a macro or greater scheme plan to have room for those things that pop in, right? The industry is like, surprise third party cookies aren't actually going away tomorrow, it's in two years, right? Or, "Hey, we've got a new regulation." Or, "Hey, this company has acquired this company." Things are really going to shape up there.

Emily Morin: So I think every single day there's something new coming down the pipeline or urgency from someone internally. Some need that needs to get met to have success as a team. And I think that is a challenge and it's a challenge probably on a daily basis, certainly on a weekly basis. And I think it's one that, like I said, curiosity helps with excitement, all of those things, but that resilience is really important because if you're someone like me who enjoys that, it's great, but you will get balls thrown at you from many different directions. And it's important to, I would say receive those with open arms even if you feel going like this.

Kathleen Booth: Now you mentioned a few terms when you were talking that sort of made my flag go up. You mentioned the term roadmap, you mentioned the term sprint. Are you guys using Agile for your team project management?

Emily Morin: Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. We're an Agile focused team. I've been that way, I think just about every company I've worked at. So it's all about the Jira boards and keeping stuff organized for the engineers. So absolutely.

Kathleen Booth: Did you ever go get trained in it or are you self-taught?

Emily Morin: That's a great question. I haven't been formally trained, not being on the project management side, so I'm not a PM, but that's definitely something that I would be interested in checking off the list for sure.

Kathleen Booth: Yeah. I always ask because it's funny. I used to run an Agile marketing team and I think my only training was, and it's probably back here. I read the book Scrum and I was like, "Okay, I think I know enough that I could figure this out." But I've always wanted to go back and formally become a scrum master even if I don't like do that in my job. I just think it would help me understand it better. But it's fascinating how that model has been adopted and I think how much more mainstream it is now.

Emily Morin: Yeah. Well I'm down to go to the sessions with you.

Kathleen Booth: Yes. Well, that goes back to curiosity, right? Got to keep learning.

Emily Morin: Absolutely.

Kathleen Booth: So when you look back on your career, is there a particular person who's had a really big impact on it that you could think of?

Emily Morin: Oh gosh, that's a great question. I've had some really great mentors and some really great leaders. I don't know if I would call out anyone specifically, Kathleen. I think it's just been really collaborative at all of the organizations I've worked for. And so I would have to say everybody has pitched in and it's been a team effort in my career. It's one of the things I feel most proud about is just the wide, vast range of people that I've been able to connect with and opportunities that I've been given in an industry.

Kathleen Booth: Well that is a diplomatic answer. I'll ask something slightly different. But also when you look back, and you think of your younger self, when you were just getting started in ad-ops, if you could turn back time, is there any particular piece of advice you would love to be able to give your younger self when you were just getting started that would have set you up for more success in your career?

Emily Morin: Yes. Also my life lesson, don't be afraid. Work with fear, everybody has it, just don't be afraid. Just go, just dream, just do it. Don't be afraid to fail. Don't be afraid to fall flat on your face. Just keep trying and keep pivoting and keep finding what makes you feel good? What makes you happy? And if you stumble down a wrong path, just make a turn, keep going in a new direction. And I've done that a few times and it's worked out to my benefit. So I would say just anybody out there don't be afraid, there's a book, Fight Your Fear and Win. It's definitely true. I think, just keep going.

Kathleen Booth: I love that advice. All right. I'm going to shift gears because I always ask two questions at the end of the interview and I want to make sure I squeeze these in before we're done. The first is of course we've already touched on this. The world of ad ops is constantly changing and if it's not the cookiepocalypse or some regulation, there's always something happening that you have to sort of stay two steps ahead of or 10 steps ahead of even better. How do you personally do that? Are there certain resources you rely on to stay educated and to stay on top of what's happening in the industry?

Emily Morin: Yeah, it's a great question. I think that's one of the things that made me thrive in the times of COVID and everything that we've been going through as a community and as a nation. So I would say for me, it's staying on top of all of the latest readings and publications, right? So on a daily basis, I'm reading the Digiday, the AdMonsters, all of the kind of industry news to find out what the latest and greatest is. And then, attending the conversations. I think, again, communication, we're all chatting about this, whether it's Kathleen's podcast or another webinar from IAB or a partner that you may be working with or pre-bid or whatever organization in the industry. I try to stay involved in those conversations, and really learn from those other folks.

Emily Morin: And we're also involved in different committees with the organizations that we work. So whether it's pre-bid or IB type lab, we're getting more involved at U.S. News, trying to stay just on top and communicative with teams. The other group that I think is important to mention, which may segue us into your second question are other publishers. So like-minded individuals, people who are doing the same things as you communicating with them. There's no reason one publisher can't talk to another publisher about what they're doing and strategies they're taking to make sure that, "Hey, we all see this going in the same direction, our goals were actually aligned in this and it helps to on the vendor and platform side for there to be alignment there."

Kathleen Booth: Yeah, I've really enjoyed seeing how collegial the world of ad ops is. And just how friendly everybody is at each other and how supportive. That's been very fun for me to watch unfold especially as I've done the podcast. And I've heard people talk about who else they think is doing great work, which does lead me into my next question, which is, "Who would you want to shout out?" Who do you think is doing fantastic work in ad ops? Who should be our next guest on the podcast?

Emily Morin: That's a really great question. I don't know that I'm going to give a name, but what I will say is going back to what's really important right now. I think that publishers who are looking inside and out at who their audience is, who they are as a brand and making sure that trust and transparency and connection and communication lies not just internally within their organization back externally, that is the key. And I am seeing, and in close communication with a lot of publishers, a lot of platforms that are putting at the forefront of their organizations and their models. And I'm seeing great success from that. So I think we'll have to leave it as a little teaser, but I will definitely say, I think there's a good group out there growing and getting things going in the first party data strategy side of the industry.

Kathleen Booth: I feel like this is podcast clickbait. Now I'm so curious who these people are. So maybe when this interview is over, I will weasel it out of you. Maybe not.

Emily Morin: We'll see what you can squeeze out.

Kathleen Booth: But I love it. I love it. And I'm so glad you shared all this. Now I can't end this interview without having you say one more thing, which is you have a really unique skill that you didn't mention in the beginning, which is you have a very interesting language that you're fluent in. So can you share with that?

Emily Morin: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Such a fun fact. Absolutely. So American sign language, and it's something I've used throughout my life, but started at the age of six with a deaf first grade teacher. So it's a fun fact about me and just embracing the deaf community that's out there. It's been a fantastic learning experience and another language to have under my belt and be proud of. So yeah, absolutely.

Kathleen Booth: That is so cool. And if you want to share this podcast with anyone from the deaf community, we always do publish it on YouTube with the captions burned in. So you can share that and there'll be able to read. And we also publish the full transcript on our website. So that's one thing that I'm personally passionate about is making the content really accessible. So that you can see it on YouTube. You can listen to it on YouTube or on audible podcast platforms, and you can read it on our website.

Emily Morin: I love it, Kathleen. That is fantastic. It's for everyone.

Kathleen Booth: Yeah. It's important. Well, all right, we're coming to the end. So I do want to thank you so much for joining me. This has been so much fun and I've loved getting to know you better. I love your enthusiasm and your positivity, and you clearly have the heart of a teacher, which I think is just so wonderful. And if you're listening and you've enjoyed this episode, as I always do, I will ask, please consider going to Apple Podcasts or the platform of your choice and giving the podcast a review. That's how other people find us. And if you want to hear more interviews with leading ad ops experts, you can head to And while you're there, check out our resource center to learn more about protecting your user experience and your revenue. In the meantime, thank you so much, Emily, for joining me. This has been wonderful.

Emily Morin: Thank you, Kathleen, it has been an absolute blast and pleasure. So thank you.

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